What’s the Difference?!

I was challenged this week to consider what the difference is between me and ‘the Lady’, that is, between one who professes to ‘know’ Jesus and be indwelt by His Spirit—a ‘believer’, and one who has chosen to live a prudent and moral life as much as possible but denies the existence of any god.  She knows plenty of mainline ‘Christians’, lots of religious people but claims to see no difference between us— I quote:

“As I say often, what interests me greatly is why it is so important for some very intelligent people to so willingly accept these myths. There is no difference in the lives of people like you who believe and people like me who do not. Your life is not any richer or happier or free from strife and problems.”

This seemed such an audacious claim that I of course set about contesting it. In part my response was:

“It is true that we are all made of the same genetic 'stuff'. We may even share certain interests (chatting about books for instance) but your 'phone' is dead (referring to a prior conversation on the subject of prayer). Until that connection is made live you will never know the dimension of life you are missing, and the quality of life comparison becomes mere wishful thinking…from my observation there is nothing compelling about denying the reality of God in this world. Even if my belief were mistaken I would rather have lived with the joy, purpose and hope that come of knowing there is a God who holds my life in His hands, calls me by name and keeps count of the hairs on my head--who indeed loves me without conditions, than to trade these in for denial, which offers a transient show of 'freedom' but ends in lonely bondage to the tyranny of myself as my only god.  That’s the way I see it.”

Well, that led to a barrage of responses from the defenders of the god-less viewpoint which sobered me to realize something more... but first some excerpts—

What an atheist (with regards to the Christian God) does get is intellectual honesty and freedom to wonder if "God" may take some other form than the unimaginative and limiting deity conceived by religion. I don't think denial applies to an atheist. –George

Joy, purpose and hope can be achieved without an outside force.
If a belief in God gives comfort to those who have none, or love to those who have none, then yes, a belief in God may have some merit. But, that merit is only an imaginary coping system. As an individual, I take full responsibility for my circumstances. It does not give me comfort, or hope to blame my circumstances on a God, or to expect a God to change them. The thought that a God holds my life in his hands is a bit scary actually. It takes all control away, it takes all choices away. I am responsible for how I choose to live my life and the actions I choose to make.--Suzie

If I select five atheistic friends and compare them to my five siblings, I see no difference in the morality of their lives, their human frailties and weaknesses, their kindnesses and generosities. The only difference is the lack of Church and God in their conversations and of course attendance at religious services. Also the atheistic are more accepting of the religious beliefs or lack thereof of others in their lives. –the Lady

Skepticism is a virtue, but faith is not. I've seen too many good people duped into believing false things over and over and over again, and being seriously financially or physically harmed.—Mr.Brain

There is no difference between the lives of those who believe and those who do not. When Katrina hit New Orleans it did not separate believers from non-believers to impact.
I do recognize that there are some differences between us because I assume you spend much time either in church, saying prayers or thinking of God and Jesus and asking for guidance from them which you then implement in your life and the lives of those for whom you are responsible. I would imagine the biggest difference is that you attribute the decisions you make for running your life to God/Jesus and I accept the responsibility for myself.
I don't know that joy and (can't remember your quote exactly) are exactly quantifiable in this way. So many other factors enter into such evaluations. No matter how deep your faith, don't think you would be so joyful in the presence of a dying family member or if you are prone to depression or ill yourself etc.—the Lady

And all these heart-felt missives led me to do some thinking too.  How different are we as Christians because we believe there is a God we can know?  Does it really just amount to church attendance and time spent praying?  Is this what people perceive? 

I read a research report suggesting that the ‘new atheism’ is in part a protest against organized religion.  It is people observing ineffective religion and opting out altogether. Could it be they have never seen authentic Christianity lived out?  In Acts I see a very different story.  The first followers of Christ turned the world upside down. Their faith and boldness to speak in Jesus’ name were unstoppable! Onlookers were converted in droves.  These believers  knew their God and really believed.  They were living evidence of His unlimited power.  What’s happened to us?  What witness does the average person see to the power of the Gospel to transform lives?

One idea that I proposed to this group of staunch un-believers was that in denying a God, they in effect make themselves to be god.  Have we as believers done the same thing? Have we forgotten our God and put ourselves in His place? For whose pleasure do I live?  Whose interests do I promote?  How different am I from someone who claims there is no god and lives by their own intuitions?  Are the ‘christians’ these folks see virtual atheists in the way they live?  Am I?  How deep is  my joy anyway?  I don’t mean to sound overly introspective here but I’ve been rolling these questions around in my mind even as I pray the Lord will plant authentic believers in these ones’ lives and help the rest of us to be that sort of believer to those around us.

This has been a very interesting on-line community to be involved with. [Incidentally, though I have changed the user names above to protect the privacy of these real persons,  they do represent a virtual community who rally together to defend their rights to think outside the box and I do appreciate their willingness to interact with me and put up with my objections and clarifications.]  Having said that, I’ve had to correct some of my assumptions about ‘atheism’.  I assumed that atheists would all be a gloomy lot since the logical end to their beliefs leaves no option but despair.  But classic atheism is apparently a rather rare commodity nowadays.

The genuine atheist who seriously lives out the implications of his non-beliefs will always end up with despair.  Nietzsche is a notable example.  He came to the conclusion that “a universal madness would break out when the truth of what mankind had done in killing God (i.e. denying his existence, saying ‘God is dead’) dawned on us.” (Zacharias, The End of Reason, p.27)  Incidentally Nietzsche spent the last thirteen years of his own life in insanity being watched over by his godly mother.

Other notorious atheists have come to their senses and escaped this snare.   Jean Paul Sartre, to the embarrassment of the intellectual elite atheist, recanted on his deathbed, acknowledging himself to be the product of a Creator God. And more recently Anthony Flew authored his own story: There is a God: how the World’s Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (2007)

When pursued to its legitimate ends an atheistic worldview is un-liveable, and yet here is this community of  people, living quite contentedly it would seem.  The ‘new atheist’ wants his morality, in fact exalts it above God’s moral standards-- (after all, look at the suffering God allows!).  He toots his own self-righteous horn all the while denying the Source of moral absolutes.   He’s inconsistent—talking one way, living another—not really living up to the label he has chosen.  How does that work?  But should this discovery have come as a surprise?  Am I not also human and often inconsistent?  In fact this scenario of not living up to one’s labels sounds all too familiar.  How did Paul put it?  “…having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof.” (II Tim.3:5)


Where else might this apply?

It dawned on me one day this week that we who believe there is an all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving, personal God who is intimately acquainted with all our ways and promises to work in every detail for our best good…we above all people, should be filled chock-full and overflowing with contagious JOY, not to mentions unfathomable peace and boundless hope.  The atheist has every excuse for despair.  We have none whatsoever.  We believe in what we do not see.  We hope in situations beyond hope.  We live and are renewed when death is imminent.  We are confident of a destiny that reaches beyond our physical lives.  To the atheist, ‘destiny’ is “no more than a popular name for girls.” They have no expectation beyond the grave.  To us it is the hope that lights our present lives, the lighthouse we can see through the storms, the sight on which we fix our eyes.  And as we live with a sense of our destiny we will be brilliant lights for people stuck in uncertain aimless lives.
 
On the other hand, if my joy is not evident… if my kids don’t see it leaking out on my face…  If my peace is riddled through with the worries of this life, how is what I believe different than ‘the Lady’?  I don’t wish to be a practical atheist.  I want to fulfill the calling to which I have been called, to live what I say I believe, to walk by faith in a power beyond my own.
 
I was challenged by an excellent commentary called “Stretch out in the Spirit” by T.Moore from the Colson Center. (http://www.colsoncenter.org/the-center/columns/viewpoint/16248-stretch-out-in-the-spirit ) He says,

 “…But if the Spirit of God lives in us, and if He is, indeed, able to do far more abundantly than all we ask or think, should we not expect more of ourselves than merely what we’ve ever known or endeavored in the past? Shall we be limited by our experience when an exceeding abundant power is at work within us?”  

So, for perhaps the first time I am looking at ‘holes’ that need to be filled and wondering if God could possibly prepare me to be able to fill them... I don't see the details yet but I’m daring to pray that He will make a way for His Kingdom to be advanced in these spots by my ‘living sacrifice’.  It’s a start in making a difference… He’s invited us to ask and He will give the nations as our inheritance (Ps.2)… to ask and He will do through us greater works than He Himself did while on the earth (Jn.14:12-14)…To dare to ask, is a starting place. 

And yes, there will be a noticeable difference, not because of who we are, but because of WHOSE we are.

“Now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think, according to the power at work within us, to Him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever.  AMEN!”


“I therefore, a prisoner for the Lord urge you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling to which you have been called…”

(Eph.3:20-4:1)

What Would You Say?

'You know how children often have an imaginary friend? That is how I look upon your "relationship" with Jesus. I would define a relationship as well, even what you and I have; or more desirably with someone you actually have seen and heard speak. Anything else is just a daydream or wishful thinking. Kind of like when a teenage girl gets a crush on a movie star or such.'

What would you say?  How do I explain this unseen relationship upon which I have built my life to a skeptic?  This was a snatch of actual ‘conversation’ (online) I had with ‘the Lady’ as I will refer to her.  She is in her 70’s now and appears quite smug and self-satisfied having abandoned the faith of her upbringing.  By way of introduction here is her story in her own words:

"You are right about upbringing as I was raised in a church [Episcopal] and my siblings (five of them) either are still in that church or have converted to Catholicism (because of marriage in two cases) I am the only atheist of the six of us, but of our 18 children, only 4 or 5 are active church members. My child had no religious upbringing, nor did her two. We are all happy, moral people who feel no lack (or even consideration on the part of my daughter and her two) of the absence of such "a pursuit of the knowledge of God" In fact to me it would be akin to chasing a will o' the wisp.

Don't you think it is interesting that what you consider a central and significant part of your life has no part in the lives of many and yet we all think of ourselves as having very full and complete lives?" 

So what is there to say?  The ‘imaginary friend’ allegation is not original. It comes straight out of popular atheistic works.  It of course feels insulting but there’s little value in reacting.  I had in another post attempted to differentiate between religion and relationship to which ‘the Lady’ responded:

"The statement you make about having a "relationship with Jesus" confuses me. In fact as soon as I read it I called my sister (whom I had wanted to speak to anyway) and asked her if she, as a Catholic, had a "relationship with Jesus" and she said she had not and so I asked her if she knew what it meant and she did not."

I was encouraged by this indication of her curiosity and by the fact that she discussed the concept with her sister, who is incidentally involved in a Bible Study at her church.  This too fuels my hope that God can yet reveal Himself to these ladies.  Eventually she asked me to spell out what I mean by ‘relationship’.  She addressed these questions to me and the other Christian active at this site:

"What exactly is a personal relationship with Jesus? Since that is the essence of Christianity, please explain it.

Do you speak to Jesus and does he answer? Do you pray and enter a trance state? Do you meditate and reach a different level of consciousness and call that a personal relationship? What exactly does personal relationship mean? Does each individual who claims to have one, define it differently?

Is it pointless for you to describe, since the unbelievers could not grasp the deeply mystical significance of such a relationship? If so, isn't it your responsibility to convince us?

In claiming this, unlike for instance, saying you believe in Jesus and in God, you are elevating yourselves to a grander standing than most of those who merely "think" they are Christians. So what exactly does a personal relationship mean and how many people do you think have one?"

What would you say?


Explaining who Jesus is to you in a context of hard-core skeptics, many of whom doubt the very historical reality of Jesus Christ, is a little like casting pearls before swine.  I had a sense that ‘the Lady’ was not so much asking out of personal interest as she was looking to mock my naivety.  But we are to be prepared to give an answer for the hope that is in us so I thought and prayed and came up with this answer:

“Lady, …Your question is a fair one, and assuming it is an honest one, deserves a well-thought out answer. This is going to be tricky without referring to the Bible, (which seems to ‘push your buttons’, so bear with me here ( : I will try to speak for myself, as I suppose, as in any relationship, different people will have different experiences and ways of explaining what they appreciate about their relationship, not to mention the different phases a relationship goes through as two people grow together. All these things are true of a relationship with Jesus. Except that in this unique case, problems in relationship are always the fault of the human factor. 

I could run through and answer your questions: Yes, yes, yes and no, no, and probably yes. But I’m afraid you still won’t get what I’m saying, not because it’s ‘deeply mystical’ but because this is a spiritual relationship. Obviously, Jesus is not here on the earth in bodily form. But He is alive and His Spirit lives in every genuine believer. This is in fact what distinguishes a Christian from one who merely follows the ‘Christian’ religion. How can I explain this to you though if we are only material beings in your line of reasoning? And no, it is not my responsibility to convince anyone of anything, only to share the good news I have found. No one has to believe it. The convincing job is where God’s Spirit comes in. (We call him the Holy Spirit) All right, I’m already sensing that I’ve lost you… The one basic obstacle we have here is that spiritual concepts (and you’re not going to like the sound of this) are only discernible to spiritual persons. And I don’t mean ‘spiritual’ in some vague way, but in the sense just mentioned—persons who have the very spirit of God residing in them. That may sound pious and other-worldly but it can be your experience too, same as any other believer. It’s not some unattainable state.

There is in fact a rather famous conversation between a teacher of the Law and Jesus that explains this. This man didn’t ‘get it’ either but saw clearly that Jesus was no ordinary man. He arranged a private interview, and Jesus came right out and told him that unless he was born ‘from above’ he could not comprehend God’s kingdom. When the man asked how this could possibly happen, being ‘born again’ (an overused term but this incident is its origin) , Jesus said it was a spirit thing. “That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit”. He then compared the Spirit to wind which we cannot see but we surely can see and know its effects! Without his spirit all the talk about having a relationship with Jesus will sound like foolishness. 

So when I say yes, I talk to Jesus, and yes, He talks back, if you’re thinking in merely physical terms you’ll think ‘ah, she’s looney’. But though I may or may not speak to Him in voiced words, his response is one that communicates with my spirit. It is a strong ‘sense’ of knowing something, an impression that goes beyond mental conjuring. It is communicated to my spirit. Here lies another obstacle to this making sense. The spirit of man. It is a dead entity until God gives it life. And because God is spirit, its being alive is necessary for one who wishes to hear from God. The Bible teaches that at the moment of entering this relationship, the believer’s spirit is made alive. It is then the place of communicating with God who is Spirit. This goes on 24/7. He’s fully present to me and I to Him. We can be silent together, or talk. To know I am fully known and loved at all times by the all-powerful God who created me is enough to face anything that may arise in my life. That’s the long and short of what I mean by relationship. Don’t know if it really answers your query. And I don’t doubt that it sounds strange, esp. if you’ve not considered the reality of a realm other than the physical one. Also, it is far more complicated to describe one’s own relationship with a spiritual being than it is to give information on how to enter this relationship (which I believe would be considered proselytizing on this thread). I guess to state it simply is to say that it’s a relationship in another dimension than the physical. It’s an ongoing, growing thing which doesn’t come naturally to any of us. An excellent book on the subject that I’ve read lately is called Hearing God. It is a sound, non-sensational explanation of what it means to develop a conversational relationship with God. It is, of course, written by a Christian ( Dallas Willard, who happens to be a long-time professor of philosophy at the U. of California) and for Christians, but you might glean some insight here.

And as for this notion of ours being a ‘grander standing’ than those who merely believe in Jesus and in God. First off, there are plenty of people who believe in ‘God’ in a vague sort of way, but want nothing to do with Jesus. That gets too personal for some reason; it demands I talk about sin and needing ‘salvation’ for instance. The Bible makes clear that it isn’t enough to merely believe God exists. Jesus said, even the demons do that. [ Yes, if there’s a good spiritual world, there’s a bad one—God’s enemies, the Devil and his demons (fallen angels)] |”You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that-and shudder”.James 2:19 So no, this isn’t an exclusive club, just one that most choose not to join. 

As for numbers, it’s difficult to speculate but there is much reference to sheep vs. goats in the Bible and this way of relationship is called a narrow road that few find (as contrasted to the wide road leading to destruction)-- Pilgrim’s Progress depicts this excellently in allegorical terms-- So the numbers are limited, fewer than polls suggest I would expect. This is not to say the way is not clearly offered to all. There are just few willing to pay the cost of following it. To me the benefits far outweigh the costs, but to the skeptical onlooker this does not seem so.

For further reading since I’ve eliminated quotes a.m.a.p. I would commend to you these chapters in the Bible: 

John 3 (the famous conversation)

Ephesians 1 & 2 (the ‘scoop’ on being dead vs. alive in spirit)

John 10 (Jesus likened to a good shepherd. His sheep hear His voice)

I Corinthians 2 (the spiritual man described)

Hebrews 1 & 2 (the big picture. God communicating down through time, and now in Jesus)”

So that is how I answered.  What would you have said?


Her reply was brief, nothing unexpected:

"Well, … I do thank you very much for your explanation of your personal relationship with Jesus and I do understand what you are saying. I don't doubt at all that you experience what you say you experience. I don't understand it, except that I would probably say it is some form of self hypnosis, or wish fulfillment or such. I really am not enough of either a psychologist, psychiatrist or person like Joseph Campbell who may have some explanation for people like you. When I say "people like you" I do not mean that in a pejorative sense."

She has no good explanation for ‘people like me’… but at least now she has ‘met’ one.  And I pray for her sister to come to the knowledge of the truth and be able to report back to her that ‘Yes! She does now know what a relationship with Jesus is!’  Until then, I guess I’m just a teeny light shining into a bunch of dismal darkened intellects.


Shortly after that conversation I came upon this poem and was encouraged. It is quoted in C.S. Lewis’ Letters to Malcolm in answer to the taunting of a skeptic that prayer is nothing more that talking to oneself…

“They tell me, Lord, that when I seem
To be in speech with you,
Since but one voice is heard, it’s all a dream,
One talker aping two.

Sometimes it is, yet not as they
Conceive it.  Rather, I
Seek in myself the things I hoped to say,
But lo! My wells are dry.

Then, seeing me empty, you forsake
The listener’s role and through
My dumb lips breathe and into utterance wake
The thoughts I never knew.

And thus you neither need reply
Nor can; thus, while we seem
Two talkers, thou art One forever, and I
No dreamer, but thy dream.”

When all is said and done, we are His children and it is God who initiates and sustains this relationship we claim to have.   Who can really explain it?!  And yet, it is more real than life itself.  And that gives me something to shine about!

“But you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, ‘Abba, Father!’” Rom.8:15

--LS

“Like precious faith”

“To them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ..."

[continuing remarks on dialoging with non-believers about faith…]

Heady stuff this business of dialoging about faith and the lack thereof. It’s easy to get sucked into the vortex of railing accusations, unfounded allegations and inflammatory speech laced with insinuation… I’ve had to step back, get into the Word and remind myself that this is a mission field.  The calling is to be salt and light, not fuel!!!  How am I to ‘give an answer’ to a skeptic anyway?  I can take my directives from God’s Word, or learn the hard way by trial and error.  I’ve done some of each this week.
Peter says always to be ready to give an answer for the hope you claim to have, but to do it with ‘gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.’ (I Pet. 3:15,16) This kind of gentle response is not a natural way of reacting to "irreverant and silly myths" (I Tim.4:7) —and they really are ‘out there’.  Did you realize some believe that the Christian God is none other than the Jupiter of Roman myth?  Really.  And they can give you ‘chapter and verse’ form ‘ancient’ writings…but I digress.   Neither will a gentle, repectful response naturally flow from my offended sensibilities when I’m slandered.  I guess you might say I learned that the hard way this week. I had to eat ‘humble pie’ a time or two when my words were not carefully chosen and came across with an accusatory tone.  I learned that “religion bashers” don’t care to be referred to this way. And I learned that it’s ok to apologize and that it very effectively ‘turns away wrath’.   I was struck with how offense is allowable one direction but never in return.  And it’s my calling to be the offended one but not the offender…I am not authorized to  respond in ‘like kind’. 
Jesus’ conversations with his opponents have taken on new relevance this week.  He knew all about choosing words carefully and knowing when and how to answer.  Sometimes he even refused to answer until they gave an answer to His question.  I read just this morning how the Pharisees ‘went and plotted how to entangle Him in his words’.  But instead Jesus left His audience marveling,  ‘astonished at His teaching’, and finally not daring to ask Him any more questions! (Mt.22)
I have also been warned that there is such a thing as an ‘unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words’ that has the effect of ‘creating constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth’ (I Tim 6:4).  This sort of thing is said to do no good but only ruin the hearers! and ‘spread like gangrene’. (II Tim.2)  That is certainly not my calling!  I want my presence on this forum to be like salt and light, not more rottenness.  I was reading Paul’s advice to Timothy.  His goal was God’s approval, and his job – to ‘rightly divide the word of truth’, avoiding ‘irreverant babble’ which not only spreads with use but is able to undermine the faith of some. (II Tim.2:14-18)  Ooooo but there is a temptation to concoct some clever verbal bit of badgering with which to stem the flow of skeptic rhetoric. BUT then I read this: “And the Lord’s servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, correcting his opponents with gentleness.  God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, after being captured by him to do his will.” (II Tim.2:24-26)
Ah yes, and of course that is right.  So I choose to pause before I read their words, and pray before I compose my own and then re-read them from Another point of view before I press the ‘Submit’ button.
But perhaps the most significant thing I’ve been reminded of this week is that underlying all the words and rationale is an unseen world of spiritual warfare.  Our struggles are not with flesh and blood, (or words and arguments). There is in fact a spiritual battle being waged over each and every unbeliever, whether or not they even believe in things unseen. (The ones I’m talking to generally don’t.) With God’s perfect timing II Cor. 10 was the text for this Sunday’s sermon: “For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh.  For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds.  We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ…”(II Cor.10:4,5) No bit of superior reasoning is capable of winning victories in this arena!  The people I’m reasoning with are blinded and held captive by the “prince of the power of the air” even if they don’t believe he exists.  Their vehement denial of the historicity and/or deity of Jesus Christ and forceful dismissal of the Bible as myth point to this deeper struggle.  They are unwitting pawns, demanding evidence but quite mired in unbelief.
What a precious commodity faith is.  I went back to Ephesians 2 to see again the glory of the story of our own rescue from this captor—saved by grace through faith, and this is itself a gift of God.  Faith so rankles the unbeliever.  Drives them crazy.  How can we believe ‘without evidence’.  They think us as ignorant, foolish, crazy, and even (and this is a rising tide in their thinking--) dangerous!  All because of faith.  I really think there is an element of jealousy in this resentment.  It was put in words this week when Will said that noone has a right to live in a ‘comfort zone’ free from a 'groping uncertainty about the truth.'  According to him every honest person will admit to living in this state.  He has turned his back on ‘church’ and taken up a rational case of atheism.  But his moral beliefs in certain areas are inconsistent with his purported unbelief.  We dialog a little and he politely refers to  me as a ‘quiet evangelist’.
But when I shut down my computer and leave this world of dialog behind I see my own world differently.  Last night we had our annual Christmas get-together with a few friends.  The conversation among believers inevitably turns to matters of faith, our like precious faith.  By it we are bonded.  In it we live and move and have hope for the future.  We can have fun together and be at ease because we agree on the most important things… But even as we talked I was reflecting on these other ‘friends’ online that see the world so differently, who see what we most cherish as a scourge to be wiped off the face of the earth [ as per Sam Harris, The End of Faith] .  And it makes my faith all the more precious.
So I gird on my sword, “the sword of the Spirit which is the Word of God” ,and my one recourse, “praying at all times in the Spirit”, and I hope to follow Paul’s example in my conversations this week (“We refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s Word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.” II Cor.4:2 ) in hopes that God may perhaps grant even one repentance and they may come to share my precious faith.

------------------------
"...Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord.” (II Pet.1:1,2)